Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10

(Cross-posted at Clintonistas for Obama)

Some of you are going to be surprised to see these words coming from me, and I implore you to read the entire diary before you begin throwing flames.

I've been defending Obama at every turn since late March. I defended him against the people who were using Wright to attack him; I defended him against bittergate; I scoffed at fingergate. I defended him until I pissed off at least half the Clinton supporters on this site. I made myself pretty unpopular with people I once liked, but I didn't care. I felt I was doing the right thing by defending him because I thought it likely that he'd become the nominee. I was trying to be fair, attempting to be moderate. I probably spent more time criticizing Hillary than Obama because she was my candidate, and I held her to a higher standard. So through my efforts to remain rational and speak in measured tones, I gave Obama the benefit of the doubt - always - for approximately three months. I stuck my neck out for him on MyDD and in my personal life, much to the displeasure of my Hillary supporter friends and my Republican parents (who came to grudgingly respect my admiration for Hillary, but felt nothing but disdain for "the empty suit"). I defended him and didn't mind doing so. I kept my doubts to myself.

But I'm profoundly upset right now, and I refuse to lie or mask my disappointment.

I think I dealt with Hillary's loss well enough - publicly, at least. I was optimistic and enthusiastic about Obama. I gave him my full support the second Hillary endorsed. I knew Obama was a good Democrat who would lead the Party with honor and govern with principle. You can never trust a politician 100% of the time, but I put a lot of faith in him. Hillary clearly believed in him, and I believe in her - so I gave Obama all the trust I could muster.

And he betrayed me.

He betrayed my trust.

In fact, I can't help thinking he betrayed his own country.

Yes, I realize it's nothing personal. I realize he can't cater to people like me all the time; no politician can win an election by speaking only to the "fringe lefties". But his lurch to the center seemed so abrupt and so violent; when he announced his support for the FISA compromise, I felt like the ground had been pulled out from beneath me. I was shocked - where had his principles gone? Where was the new politics of hope and change? Why was he pandering, why was he compromising? Didn't this sound a great deal like the much-decried triangulation of the 90s?

Senator Feingold put it best:

"The proposed FISA deal is not a compromise; it is a capitulation. The House and Senate should not be taking up this bill, which effectively guarantees immunity for telecom companies alleged to have participated in the Presidents illegal program, and which fails to protect the privacy of law-abiding Americans at home. Allowing courts to review the question of immunity is meaningless when the same legislation essentially requires the court to grant immunity. And under this bill, the government can still sweep up and keep the international communications of innocent Americans in the U.S. with no connection to suspected terrorists, with very few safeguards to protect against abuse of this power. Instead of cutting bad deals on both FISA and funding for the war in Iraq, Democrats should be standing up to the flawed and dangerous policies of this administration."

And Obama capitulated. He caved, he folded, he buckled. I've been an Obama supporter for less than a month, and I already felt disillusioned and angry. I hadn't pegged him as the sort of politician who would pander and "compromise" quite that much. And where did I get that impression? I got it from his stance on the gas tax holiday. I slammed Hillary on that issue because as far as I was concerned, it was shameless pandering. It may have sounded good to the uninformed, but it was a terrible idea. I respected Obama for opposing it; he voted for it in the Illinois state legislature, came to the conclusion that it didn't work, and ultimately took a principled stance against it. For once, I felt he'd outshined Hillary. As a result, I came to the conclusion that he was less likely to pander to the masses.

I was wrong. FISA, faith-based initiatives... disappointments of epic proportions. I was furious and disgusted. One of the things which made me angriest was the knowledge that, had Hillary become the nominee and taken the same positions, the vast majority of the Left would have gone on yet another witch hunt. Of course, Obama is (rightfully) taking a metaphorical beating from his own supporters. Some of them are taking it a little too far. A few are withdrawing all support. People are withholding their funds and even asking his campaign to refund previous donations (and from what I understand, he's doing it).

What's worse, although Hillary issued a statement in February [many thanks to atd for finding it] in opposition to the FISA Amendment, she may now feel pressured to support the decisions of the nominee. I'd love to see her take a stand, show leadership, and join the effort to filibuster the bill; I fear, however, that she is locked in by her own powerful endorsement. She has promised to support Obama, and I believe she will - in every way. That means she'll probably take the stance that he took, she'll support his position. I half wonder whether she can keep fighting for us if she's busy fighting for Obama.

I didn't know what to say or do at first, but I've had some time to think now. It's true, we should hold his feet to the fire, but we shouldn't abandon our nominee or offer him our unmitigated scorn. I'll get back to FISA in a moment, but before Clinton backers crucify Obama over his support for faith-based initiatives, let's think for a moment. When aurelius said, "To hell with you, Barack," my initial reaction was an involuntary but emphatic, "Yes!" And then I remembered... Hillary has spoken out in support of them, as well. Disappointing, yes?

I think this is the thing that's so difficult for a lot of Clinton supporters. When I heard about Obama's stance on the FISA compromise, part of me wanted to scream, "SEE?!? WE TOLD YOU SO!!!" at the people who had been supporting him all along. I keep thinking, "Hillary never would have buckled like this." The truth is, I'm not sure what she might have done had she become the nominee. The second you start going toe-to-toe with the GOP, the game changes. Hillary might have disappointed me on FISA, too, and the fact that she supported faith-based initiatives is disappointing, no matter how I look at it. Now that Hillary's out of the race, it's very easy to say, "She would have made a better decision on this issue," whenever Obama screws up. It's easy to forget the times she screwed up. But I shouldn't forget because Hillary wasn't perfect, and Barack is a good candidate overall.

So for those of you who are angry, as I am, please try to remember that Obama is still a man of principle on many issues. For the most part, he believes in the things we believe in. He supports the 50-State Strategy. He has instructed the DNC to stop taking money from lobbyists. Polls indicate that offshore drilling is now favored by a majority of voters, but he hasn't caved - he stands in staunch opposition. He's taken a relatively unpopular but principled stance in favor of driver's licenses for illegal immigrants. While he doesn't personally believe in gay marriage and isn't the gay rights champion I'd like him to be, he still wants to repeal DOMA and "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Even Hillary didn't intend to repeal DOMA altogether, but Obama has called it "an abhorrent law." He and Michelle have spoken out forcefully against it. In a speech called "The Great Need of the Hour," which he gave at Dr. King's church the day before Martin Luther King, Jr. Day this January, Obama addressed the bigotry he perceived within the African American community and stuck his neck out for the LGBT community, the Jewish community, and immigrant communities:

"For most of this country's history, we in the African-American community have been at the receiving end of man's inhumanity to man. And all of us understand intimately the insidious role that race still sometimes plays - on the job, in the schools, in our health care system, and in our criminal justice system.

And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we're honest with ourselves, we'll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King's vision of a beloved community.

We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them. The scourge of anti-Semitism has, at times, revealed itself in our community. For too long, some of us have seen immigrants as competitors for jobs instead of companions in the fight for opportunity." - Barack Obama, Jan 20 2008 [huge thanks to psychodrew for finding this for me]

Now look at our other option - a man who flipped on offshore drilling, flopped on immigration, still supports DOMA and DADT, and lacks the courage to look Ellen DeGeneres in the eyes:

The differences between the two candidates are stark - like night and day - and we have a good candidate in Barack Obama. Do we want four more years of darkness under another Republican administration? Obama has pissed a lot of us off, yes, but let's not withdraw our support. Let's not abandon or abuse our nominee. I'm speaking especially to the Clinton supporters whose doubts are resurfacing, and to the Obama supporters who are suddenly realizing they don't know their candidate as well as they thought they did. Take a deep breath, count to ten, and channel your anger into something productive. Take action. Go join the "Get FISA Right" group on MyBO, which is now well over 15,000 members strong. (I recommend that you not select the option to receive all emails because I foolishly did so and received over 80 emails within approximately two hours yesterday. Select the "Receive a daily digest" option instead.) There are several steps you can take from there, including contacting the Obama campaign office, contacting Obama's Senate office, and contacting your own representatives. If you need help thinking of what to say when calling Sen. Obama and your representatives, go here for suggestions. Go to the "What else you can do" page, and you'll find a number of options to keep you busy. There are two petitions for you to sign - Harry Whirlit's online petition and Credo Action's online petition.

We have until July 8 to put some serious pressure on our nominee and our senators. Let's find out whether Obama was right. Let's see if we are the change we've been waiting for. But even if it doesn't work out - even if we can't change Barack's mind - he's still worth fighting for. Our country is worth fighting for, and even if I disagree with him often, I have faith that President Obama will do his utmost to bring safety and prosperity to this nation and its people. I trust he will get us out of Iraq, pass healthcare legislation, reform immigration, bolster our economy, fight for gay rights, and protect women's rights. Those things alone are change we can believe in, but somehow, despite his stance on FISA and faith-based initiatives, I'm reasonably confident he'll do better than that.



Display:


Tips for keeping our priorities straight. (2.00 / 19)

Many, many thanks and kudos to my fellow Clintonistas for Obama. They've been an excellent support group, and have allowed me to complain loudly and voice my doubts in private, where it's appropriate. They've also answered every question I've asked and promptly found any information I've requested. Thanks, you guys are awesome.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:49:58 PM EST

While your counting... (2.00 / 3)

please take a peek at my diary for a different perspective on FISA.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/7/3/16414 9/9447#readmore

I'm disappointed too, but am trying to see the bright side.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:59:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fortunately (1.20 / 5)

We don't have a nominee until the convention, and all the delegate and superdelegate votes are counted.


by Xov Wonk on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:01:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wonderful read...Today Markos came out (2.00 / 6)

strongly (again) against Obama's FISA compromise...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7 /3/12425/59527/156/545991


by louisprandtl on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wonderful read...Today Markos came out (2.00 / 4)

Yep - and said "I hope he wins big."

No candidate will please you all the time. You still got two viable choices in this election and one is MCain.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:14:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah..and do you think I'll vote for McCain? (2.00 / 2)


by louisprandtl on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's the problem (2.00 / 3)

Some people can only see in black and white.  You either support everything the candidate does and says - or you're for the other guy.  

I'm with you.  I'm disappointed, I'm going to voice it - but I'm still voting for Obama.  That just doesn't register with the linear minded.


by The Fat Lady Sings on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually I was surprised because politicsmatters (2.00 / 1)

is a very thoughtful blogger with background in University Administration...I had "conversed" with him before on MyDD in different diaries and he does come across as a very knowledgeable person. I didn't expect that type of binary reductionist response from him. I'm disappointed.


by louisprandtl on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:00:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

NIce Diary. Go ahead and vent... (2.00 / 2)

and Sriki, keep doing the deep breathing. It's good for the soul.

Obama must show others (and us) what he is about. For me, the faith-based initiatives are a positive, b/cause I have personally seen good things at the people level done with those grants.

For you, not so much.

Both we both can agree on some things..like no McCain. That would be pure disaster for our country, something to reflect on this July 4th.
It will take a boatload of voters and all those voters have to see something of themselves in Obama.  Thank you.


by Mae Scott on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wonderful read...Today Markos came out (2.00 / 1)

I never read kos anymore, after the horrible things he wrote about Hillary, I won't bother to give him the creds with another click to his little orange playground.

If I were Jewish, I'd bury his vest in the backyard.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:25:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks, sricki... (2.00 / 7)

You wrote the diary I could only dream of writing. I feel mostly the same way. I'm REALLY disappointed in Barack right now for capitulating. He's doing exactly what he bashed Bill Clinton for doing in the '90s.

So yes, I'm disappointed now. But still, I'll support him over McBush. Why? I still agree with Obama more on the issues.

And maybe if the telecom immunity is stripped out of the FISA bill and we all can move on from this, I'll start to like Barack again. :-)


Help Clintonistas for Obama help Democrats win! :-)
by atdleft on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:13:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great diary (2.00 / 3)

I disagree with it (I could care less about FISA), but I appreciate your point of view and I really respect you.

I can only say one thing: This is not over. Obama is going to try to strip telecom immunity. If that happens, I hope you reevaluate.


by Lance Bryce on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:27:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How many votes do we need for that? (none / 0)

If that amendment somehow passes, Obama can breathe a deep sigh of relief.  I think there's chance he can get Collins and Coleman to cross-over if he promises to cut a commercial with them (of course, he'd then be throwing Franken under the bus but Franken has already proven himself to be worthless).  Isn't Specter going to vote with us on the amendment?


by Blazers Edge on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stripping telcom immunity... (none / 0)

I wish I had your confidence about that, but I don't.

Key Democrats in the House and Senate wanted this telcom immunity so badly that they didn't care how badly it pissed off the rest of us.  So they bided their time, trying to push the bill whenever they thought the hubbub had died down enough to let them try to sneak it through very quickly.  Eventually they will succeed.

This wouldn't happen if there weren't some powerful pressures inside the Democratic leadership behind the push for this immunity.  It's clearly not based on principles.  I doubt it's just telcom money either.  I don't know what it is.  But hopefully, someday we will know.

I just don't count on Obama to buck the Senate and House Democratic leadership on this telcom immunity thing.  I'm disappointed.

It's not so much that I want to see the telcoms prosecuted or sued.  I just want to find out the whole truth about what these dicks have been doing the past seven years.  The Dem majority has shown a surprising reluctance to use their subpoenas to find out that truth, and that seems to be part and parcel of the same problem.  Our best chance for discovering the truth was through civil lawsuits.  Take that off the table, and we may have to wait a long time before we find out everything they did.

But we will find out eventually.  There will be a Church Commission equivalent some time in the future.  I just don't count on the Party to do its job right now.

FOR ALL THAT -- let me add, Telcom immunity is not as big a deal as the war or state-sponsored torture.  Those are the two big issues that I need addressed.  If Obama reverses course on those, then there will be real hell to pay.  Compared ot that, though, this is the kind of real world ugly politics that you have to endure.  If we want to stop this, we will have to exercise pressure where we can, and at this point, it's probably best to exercise it by pummeling the Dem leadership and Congresspeople who voted for telcom immunity.


by Dumbo on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for keeping our priorities straight. (2.00 / 3)

I wonder what we think about today's 1st small glance at Obama wavering on Iraq. If you think FISA was an issue among democrats waits till he moves to the center on Iraq and calls the surge a success.


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The wavering thing is bullshit. (2.00 / 1)

Believe me, I would have an embolism if that happened.  I've been watching the coverage about that, today (and some, yesterday), but it seems to be more Republican spin than anything else.  Obama didn't reverse himself on anything.  If he does, you'll know because you'll see me exploding.  I already drafted a John Doe Impeachment petition for the NEXT president (whoever he/she is) if they don't get us out of Iraq.

Don't be so hasty to believe such poorly crafted Republican spin.


by Dumbo on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for keeping our priorities straight. (none / 0)

Great Republican "Talking Points"


by Politicalslave on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:16:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama just threw Pro-Choice... (1.33 / 3)

under that bus.

WOW, what principles!!!!


by CoyoteCreek on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We're counting waaaay past "10..." (2.00 / 2)

If you think compromise on FISA was tough...you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Look what's happening with Obama and Irag now....

Anyhow, having been around the block on this type of thing for a few decades, this type of thing doesn't upset me, although I know it bums others.

I'm still supporting him, and I'm sure he'll continue to move more towards the center, the closer we get to election day, too!

That doesn't mean I can't hold my nose when I vote for the guy come, however. No candidate's perfect...far, far from it....that's for damn sure.

"Change you can believe in?" Maybe. Eventually. But, not immediately. In the meantime, I'll send him money and encourage all of my friends to vote for him. But, then again, my own personal "bar" is pretty low, compared to others, when it comes to this sort of thing.


by bobswern on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We're counting waaaay past "10..." (none / 0)

If anyone cares to go back and look at Obama's prior statements on Iraq and what he said, you will understand that Obama has not changed his stance on Iraq:

During a March 2 Washington Post foreign policy "Q&A," when asked what size his proposed "over-the-horizon" force in Iraq would be, Obama responded: "The precise size of the residual force will depend on consultations with our military commanders and will depend on the circumstances on the ground, including the willingness of the Iraqi government to move toward political accommodation."

During the September 12, 2007, broadcast of National Public Radio's All Things Considered, Obama said: "If commanders came to me and said, 'We are making progress in reducing violence,' and I see continuing political progress taking place, then obviously that's going to be weighed against the need to, I believe, have some additional troops in Afghanistan." From the interview:

MICHELE NORRIS (host): So, in trying to determine what the U.S. footprint in Iraq would look like -- say you're in office, and your commanders, your military commanders, are telling you that progress is being made. If they're saying, "We can win this," are you still going to draw down forces? As a commander in chief, who does not have personal military experience, are you willing to look someone like David Petraeus in the eye and say, "You're wrong. We're going to do it my way"?

OBAMA: If commanders came to me and said, "We are making progress in reducing violence," and I see continuing political progress taking place, then obviously that's going to be weighed against the need to, I believe, have some additional troops in Afghanistan. That's going to be weighed against our homeland security needs in the United States. I think that the overarching question is: What is going to be needed to make the United States more secure, meet our strategic interests around the world, and make sure that we are meeting the obligations that we have towards the Iraqi people?

But that is all part of a decision that the president makes in consultation with his generals, but not in deference to them. And I think one of the unfortunate aspects of the last several days and General Petraeus' testimony is the illusion that, somehow, General Petraeus has been setting policy and the president has simply been accepting those recommendations. That is not what has been taking place. The president has been laying out a mission of continuing this failed course in Iraq and General Petraeus and Ambassador [Ryan] Crocker have been trying to carry out that mission as best they could.

And quoted from the Caucus Blog yesterday:

"I've always said that the pace of withdrawal would be dictated by the safety and security of our troops and the need to maintain stability. That assessment has not changed," he said. "And when I go to Iraq and have a chance to talk to some of the commanders on the ground, I'm sure I'll have more information and will continue to refine my policies."

Media Matters


by skohayes on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:29:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Great diary! (2.00 / 2)

So happy to have you on board.  I excited to see this diary today.  You really expressed what's been in my head the last few days.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:27:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (1.75 / 8)

Is he going to flip on Iraq?


by ottovbvs on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:01:28 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 3)

I don't know! Johb McCain told me he would! I guess I beleive it because I'm a moron!


by Lance Bryce on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:28:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (none / 0)

Well...
Maybe you were born a "suspect".
Maybe you have had police stop you in your neighborhood because of the color of your skin
and the vehicle you drive...
I don't know...
What I may know is this..
People who believe that a bi-racial man can run for President as if he were not bi-racia..need to wake the fuck up.
Sen. Clinton..had the right melanin but was a woman.
Look what happened to her...

What Sen. Obama represents transcends anything in our lifetimes...
Imagine what it will look like when the formal Picture of President Obama replaces Bush in Birmingham AL...

My advice..if you are really pissed off about our nation's current status?
Have the courage to force your local govt...or come here in Aug and force Denver..to arrest your ass for non-violent CD....

But until then
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfbKIOexL Dc

(by the way..if you come to Denver..
I will be one of many passing out thousand' of
"Groucho Glasses" to assist folks in preventing video intrusion...
http://www.letzparty.com.au/USERIMAGES/L S4701-1(2).jpg


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:16:40 PM EST

Did you even read the whole diary?? (2.00 / 8)

How is your comment relevant?


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you even read the whole diary?? (none / 0)

"Imagine what it will look like when the formal Picture of President Obama replaces Bush in Birmingham AL..."

Not that I'm the expert of all things Alabama but.

From what I know? Birmingham is not the Birmingham of water hoses and dogs. I know there are folks from there who'll say I got no clue. But really the days of Bull Connor? They'll have a ceremony and there will be happy folks. I don't forsee massive riots in the streets. I just don't. Sorry it's just some folks who read this still think that the South is full of evil racists who hate all black people and well they don't. Things and people change.

Just wanted to say.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:23:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree (2.00 / 9)

his tack to the right is weak sauce as far as I am concerned and is causing me to donate down ballot instead,


The guy advising John McCain on the economy thinks you are a whiner.
by Sanguine Giant on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:19:31 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 10)

Appreciate this diary. Just still screaming my head off.


by linfar on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:21:20 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 6)

sricki, thank you for saying what many of us have felt. You gave good advice and hopefully many of us will take it.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Bill Clinton
by venician on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:24:28 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 9)

I must admit, as a Hillary supporter who now supports Barack Obama, I am enjoying the exploding heads over at DKos just a little bit too much.
People that are all upset about his faith based initiatives never bothered to look at his work as a community organizer, where much of his time was spent working with neighborhood churches to improve conditions in the neighborhood.
If people looked at his voting record, why didn't they see that much of his career he has spent compromising with Republicans in order to get things done?
I'm not disapoointed, because I expected it.
The only thing Obama could do to make me not vote for him is to take a Republican as VP.
That would be my "last straw".
by skohayes on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:28:43 PM EST

Highly Rec'd... (2.00 / 6)

This FISA thing is extremely troubling for me, although I've kept quiet on it. I understand his need to move to center but it seems so drastic, I still support him but he's making it tough. It's like he seems to be overcompensating, but we'll have to see what happens.

I also agree that I would love to see Hillary come out and take a principled stand against FISA, as she appeared to have done before, but I fear that there would be backlash "oh, she's trying to rain on Barack's parade" or "Hillary's stealing the show", some type of media bullshit. So I don't think she can come out in opposition to this.

It's a frustrating situation.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:30:27 PM EST

Re: Highly Rec'd... (1.75 / 4)

"I also agree that I would love to see Hillary come out and take a principled stand against FISA, as she appeared to have done before"

Not trying to start a flame war, but I think Senator Clinton was trying to duck FISA when she missed that vote. (OK, clobber me now).

So, I think I will remind you THEY BOTH were trying to take the right stances before, and ask you, (and Linfar, etc, all the strong Clinton suppporters who are working hard to support Obama)
would you be giving Senator Clinton a little more slack if SHE was making the same decision Obama is in his position?

Because NOW one of them, not the one you all wanted, is the candidate.

My guess is, she would be doing the same sort of move, for about the same reasons:

One, this bill is going to pass, so why give the Republics an ad that says:

"Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton not only voted against her own party to take away our ability to intercepts terrorist phone calls, she voted against the American People"...

Cause, take out Senator Clinton's name and put in Senator Obama's name, and it's the same ad.

And two, there are two many congress critters (Feinstien, Rockfeller, Pelosi) who signed off on warrantless wiretapping in the frenzy right after 9/11 who DON'T want those court suits against the telcos revealing who knew what and when?

I think Senator Clinton, on the advice of her people, would have made about the same decision on this that Senator Obama is doing now, if she was the nominee.

Doesn't make me feel any better, but I think there is a reason the Clinton supporters are pouring it on more here then the Obama supporters?

And my gut tells me, if the shoe was reversed the Obama folks would be screaming at the Clinton supporters about Senator Clinton's capitulation, and some of you would be defending the barracdes for the Senator?

I have a LOT of problems, for example seeing someone like Lakrosse, who is ripping Obama over this, and believes the entire Clinton clan walks on water, not flip-floping on this, and staunchly defending Senator Clinton if this was her decision?

Oh, well, all grist for the mill.

Still, it does sort of counteract the Kool-aid claim over at the great Orange Satan.

Everyone from Kos on down is ripping Obama for his! I think Kos has changed his cell -phone to ignore when the Obama campaign calls now.


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:51:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Highly Rec'd... (2.00 / 8)

Hillary actually opposed the retroactive area of the bill WHILE she was running for the nomination, on record on her Senate website; and it was far from when the race was over:

http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statement s/details.cfm?id=292758

As I have maintained for months, I oppose the provision contained in the bill that grants blanket retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that allegedly cooperated in the administration's warrantless wiretapping program. I believe granting retroactive immunity under these circumstances is wrong and undermines accountability. To that end, I have supported and cosponsored Senator Dodd's strong efforts to strip this provision from the FISA bill, and was discouraged to see the amendment fail by such a significant margin

I steadfastly believe that she missed the FISA vote because she cannot differ from Obama's position on this; or else she would be eaten alive for "showing Barack up", or "not supporting our nominee" by the mainstream media. Sricki has a pretty good write up on the endorsement effect in her post.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Highly Rec'd... (none / 0)

"I steadfastly believe that she missed the FISA vote because she cannot differ from Obama's position on this;"

No, I am talking about the vote BEFORE the Primary was over, that earlier on she missed.

The one Obama returned from the campaign from to vote for.


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Highly Rec'd... (2.00 / 1)

How is this in any way different than Obama's position?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Highly Rec'd... (none / 0)

Exactly


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 3)

My response was for those "disappointed" in Obama.
Sen. Obama HAS to do certain "things" between now and November different....
Here in Colorado...we are not only working to get Obama elected...but we are laying the foundation to place Sen. Salazar next to Sen.LieIam as irreverent.
The ground effort is already under way.

"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:31:23 PM EST

Okay, (2.00 / 3)

but there's nothing wrong with people who are feeling disappointed. It happens. Your previous comment was bizarre and absurdly hostile.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 3)

Great Diary, Sricki, I appreciate you consistancy and I agree with your anger.

Rec'd


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:32:46 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 2)

oh yeah...

"And Obama capitulated. He caved, he folded, he buckled"...

The impeachment hearings are when?
No Dem that you supported in your State is supporing the FISA Bill?

...and of course...you, who have never run for office, but in your daily job NEVER did anything short term that others saw as caved,  folded, buckled"...

I remind my son and daughter that rule number #1?
Your peers will usually ask you to do what they lack the courage to do themselves....then criticize you when you do...


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:39:07 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 2)

He ran against "typical Washington politics" and said we needed to stop acting like Republicans on foreign policy.  His supporters accused Hillary Clinton of triangulating and watching polls and governing from the center, while ignoring (or praising) his RW attacks on her health care plan.

And now HE turns out to be everything his supporters accused Hillary of being.

I'm not disappointed because I never bought in the whole "Obama is the Messiah who will change Washington and make the world a perfect place" bullshit.  I actually find this whole thing very amusing.  I know that more of this is coming and I look forward to seeing his supporters on the blogosphere and the commentariat squirm as he becomes what he says he loathed...Washington.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:36:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 3)

As always, I appreciate your perspective.  I guess I'm mildly disappointed by the whole thing, but it just doesn't get me that worked up.  I'm not sure why.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:45:40 PM EST

I have recced (2.00 / 3)

Even though I generally like the idea of Sen. Obama's "lurch"ing to the center on many issues (although not on FISA).

He is doing it awkwardly, and clumsily... and that should be reason for concern.  But the center is where sensible governing happens...

Disclosure: I am not now, nor have ever been in the past.. an Obama supporter.  I might become an Obama supporter in the future... but that will depend on where he ends up after all his "lurch"es to the center are done with !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:49:40 PM EST

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 3)

This "lurch" is mainly in the eyes of those people who never understood Obama or where he was coming from in the first place. I notice that an awful lot of people claiming he is "lurching" to the center are Clinton supporters. A lot of them have no idea about where he stood on some of these issues before they got in the news.

He didn't "lurch" on gun control or the death penalty. He's pretty much where he's always been on those. He didn't "lurch" on faith-based initiatives. This is who he is, it's all part of his community-organizer background. He didn't "lurch" on FISA. His opposition became more lukewarm, although his opposition against telco immunity is still there. This is hardly a "lurch". This has yet to play out entirely. I'm holding judgment on it until the Senate takes it up.

Where is this "lurch" you see? Please explain it to me, because I just don't see it.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ummm... (2.00 / 2)

This is sorta amusing...

If you dont see it, then what are the chances that me explaining it to you will suddenly make you see it =)

Or wait...was that a rhetorical question ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ummm... (none / 0)

No, not rhetorical. For instance, please explain to me how his stance on gun control or the death penalty can be considered a "lurch". It should be simple. All you need to do is post a quote by him that differs from his current stance enough to be considered a "lurch". Feel free to do the same with any of his other recent "lurch-worthy" statements.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ummm... (2.00 / 1)

And by what definition is a lurch limited to gun control and/or the death penalty ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:31:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ummm... (2.00 / 1)

Did you miss this?

Feel free to do the same with any of his other recent "lurch-worthy" statements.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:41:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay, let us see (2.00 / 1)

Iraq : Is Sen. Obama "softening" his stance on the Iraq war pullout timetable?

Even his supporter ~ Sen McCaskill, who claims that his stance on Iraq has not changed, suggests that the timeline is is not set in stone

I will not go into FISA, or FBI, or the death penalty ~ I consider those to be less important.

But, I am sure you have a perfectly logical explanation for all that.  Perhaps you can dig up a quote made to some obscure newspaper from back in 2007 that suggests that the Iraq war pullout was not set in stone.  Perhaps you can dig up a similar quote from back in 2007, where he suggested that he would be willing to modify his plan based on circumstances, and on the recommendations of the commanders on the ground (just like GWB).

Or, perhaps, you dont care....


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, let us see (2.00 / 1)

So you are saying that the next president should take a stance 18 months before taking office and not refine that stance based on changing circumstances and intelligence reports upon taking office? Or are you saying, he should be as unflexible as Bush?

BTW, Obama has not backed away from his original plan to start withdrawing troops from Iraq immediately and to have most of those troops out within 18 months.

Only a fool would consider implementing a plan without the input of the commanders on the ground and the experts in the field. If there's one thing I'm sure about when it comes to Obama, it's that he is no fool.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:41:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, let us see (none / 0)

that is what Sen. Obama was saying....

Cheerios =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, let us see (none / 0)

Links, or it didn't happen.


by username on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

"Go to his website !!"

Altogether now...

"Go to his website !!"


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:17:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (2.00 / 1)

A primer in blogger etiquette:

It is incumbent upon the person making the claim to provide the link.  Bloggers have short attention spans and most won't bother trying to prove your assertions.  Therefore, you need to prove them yourself if you want your claim to be taken seriously.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:21:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

"Go to his website !!"

What a noob.


If you want Unity, nominate a Democrat
by rankles on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

So learn us noobs then.  

Would it be OK for me to say:

Hillary Clinton wants us to stay in Iraq for 100 years, just like John McCain.  Go to her website if you don't believe me.

Thanks in advance for sharing your vast blogging experience with a noob like me.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:59:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

Learn to debate, kid.  Saying 'go to his website' doesn't cut it, noob.


If you want Unity, nominate a Democrat
by rankles on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:14:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

Oh really!

Another primer in blogger etiquette:   look at the links provided (upthread) before demanding one !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

Those links don't go to his website.  You should use the preview feature before you post your comments.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:01:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

You mean you are not intimately familiar with his website ?  I am not a supporter, and yet I have the following lines memorized...

Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

Feel free to ignore it, however =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:06:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

See how easy that was? (none / 0)

Free blogging tip:

If you find you are linking to a particular page often, make it a bookmark so you have easy access to it.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:12:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: See how easy that was? (2.00 / 1)

One blogging tip deserves another:

Quit dispensing worthless advice, and address the issue at hand ... you might even consider backing up whatever you are arguing for with some facts (and links) of your own!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: See how easy that was? (none / 0)

Nah.  I don't really care about your faux outrage.


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:03:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: See how easy that was? (none / 0)

You cared enough to demand a link (and to dispense worthless advice, I might add)... so which is it ??


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:02:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: See how easy that was? (none / 0)

It isn't an either or proposition my friend.  I can dismiss your faux outrage and still be concerned enough about the process to insist you provide a link that supports whatever it is that you are pretending to be outraged about.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:49:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: See how easy that was? (none / 0)

I think you must have misunderstood something very fundamental about blogging etiquette:  the Gods of blogging have not granted you the power to go around "dismissing" other people's concerns.  You can either engage in the argument, or you can keep your trap shut...

And since you so proudly proclaim to be concerned about people providing links to support whatever it is you are pretending to be outraged about, how about you provide a link that supports your assertion as to what blogging etiquette really is.

Or, are you just making the whole thing up ?  My friend !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

How is that inconsistent with this:
"My 16-month timeline, if you examine everything that I've said, was always premised on making sure that our troops were safe. I said that based on the information that we had received from our commanders that one to two brigades a month could be pulled out safely, from a logistical perspective. My guiding approach continues to be that we've got to make sure that our troops are safe and that Iraq is stable. I'm going to continue to gather information to find out whether those conditions still hold."

i.e. "I proposed a 16-month timeline based on what looked feasible at the time.  If circumstances change, it doesn't make sense to keep the same timeline."  Obviously it's shaded differently, but I just can't get too worked up about it.
by username on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:53:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

I do not believe that his 16 month timeline, if you examine everything he said, was always premised on anything....

His website says will pullout....not, might pullout...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:05:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

The "fact sheet" is a bit more nuanced:
Barack Obama would immediately begin redeploying American troops from Iraq.  The withdrawal would be strategic and phased, directed by military commanders on the ground and done in consultation with the Iraqi government.

So he gave himself some wriggle room at the start.  I think it's necessary both actually -- things may change between now and next year -- and politically -- if he said "I'll remove troops at this rate no matter what," he'd get crushed.
by username on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:57:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: funny to say this, but I will say it =) (none / 0)

Yes, I agree... he has reserved different amounts of wiggle room depending on the audience.

I am choosing to go by the website html... and not the pdf.  


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:59:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, let us see (none / 0)

BTW, Bush didn't modify his position when the commanders on the ground didn't agree with him, he just appointed a new commander until he found one that would.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:42:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, let us see (none / 0)

Pleas see this post above, that shows he never had a timeline "set in stone".

Here is a quote from 2007, as requested:

MICHELE NORRIS (host): So, in trying to determine what the U.S. footprint in Iraq would look like -- say you're in office, and your commanders, your military commanders, are telling you that progress is being made. If they're saying, "We can win this," are you still going to draw down forces? As a commander in chief, who does not have personal military experience, are you willing to look someone like David Petraeus in the eye and say, "You're wrong. We're going to do it my way"?

OBAMA: If commanders came to me and said, "We are making progress in reducing violence," and I see continuing political progress taking place, then obviously that's going to be weighed against the need to, I believe, have some additional troops in Afghanistan. That's going to be weighed against our homeland security needs in the United States. I think that the overarching question is: What is going to be needed to make the United States more secure, meet our strategic interests around the world, and make sure that we are meeting the obligations that we have towards the Iraqi people?

And here's a quote from yesterday:

"I've always said that the pace of withdrawal would be dictated by the safety and security of our troops and the need to maintain stability. That assessment has not changed," he said. "And when I go to Iraq and have a chance to talk to some of the commanders on the ground, I'm sure I'll have more information and will continue to refine my policies."

Please feel free to point out the "softening in his stance"?


by skohayes on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:39:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, let us see (none / 0)

Sen Obama on his website...

Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

It doesnt sound like the pace of the withdrawal is being dictated by the safety and security of the troops, and by the need to preserve order on the ground, does it !  On the contrary, it wills a timeline pretty much carved in stone...16 months !!

Feel free to ignore his website, however =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:00:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, let us see (none / 0)

And where did he say he was not going to start pulling troops out and redeploying?
I hear that he wants to refine his policy, not alter it.
by skohayes on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:20:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, let us see (none / 0)

Ah yes, refining the policy is not an alteration, by any means...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:29:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, let us see (none / 0)

Refine:

verb (used with object) 1. to bring to a fine or a pure state; free from impurities: to refine metal, sugar, or petroleum.  

  1. to purify from what is coarse, vulgar, or debasing; make elegant or cultured.  
  2. to bring to a finer state or form by purifying.  
  3. to make more fine, subtle, or precise: to refine one's writing style.  
-verb (used without object) 5. to become pure.  
  1. to become more fine, elegant, or polished.  
  2. to make fine distinctions in thought or language.  
--Verb phrase8. refine on or upon, to improve by inserting finer distinctions, superior elements, etc.: to refine on one's previous work.  

To alter:

-verb (used with object) 1. to make different in some particular, as size, style, course, or the like; modify: to alter a coat; to alter a will; to alter course.  
2. to castrate or spay.  
-verb (used without object) 3. to change; become different or modified.  


by skohayes on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:05:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 1)

One last comment...before my wife and I go out for live music on a Thursday....

as the vote...or Senate speeches have not taken place...
...is it out of bounds to suggest..
that we wait for this to happen..?


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:50:40 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 3)

Excellent diary. I disagree on some points, but there's no sense rehashing everything. I'm more upset about the faith-based issue than I am over FISA. With FISA, it's more a matter of being angry at every Dem in the House that voted in favor of telco immunity. I let my rep know in no uncertain terms that his aye vote made me reconsider  phone banking for him and that I would probably not donate to his campaign. I was angry at the time and when I didn't receive any kind of response from him to my email, not even a form letter, I decided that I really might not work for him. As time goes on, I'll probably start looking at the alternative and realize that, angry as I am, his opponent is far worse. I'm holding judgment on the Senate until I see how this all works out.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:54:41 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 4)

I started reading your post and thought maybe you have finally seen the light. It is like watching some one with split personality disorder with a good half and an evil half. I thought the good half had finally prevailed. But no evil triumphed once again.

I can only shake my head and ask how many times do you have to have your teeth kicked in before you fight back?

You don't compromise on the constitution. FISA actually never had to be changed except perhaps very slightly tweaked for technology advances like taking into account that calls simply passing through nodes in the US does not preclude monitoring those calls. And you never support anything that endangers separation of church and state. If the gas tax holiday was pandering then Obama faith based plan is  the worst kind of pandering. And if he really believes this then it is even more frightening. .


by Bornagaindem on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:59:19 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (none / 0)

Last minute geezer shit..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hFLwItda ec&feature=related
"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:59:25 PM EST

Rec'd for honesty (2.00 / 4)

even though I disagree. I've never understood the benefit of going after telecom companies for kowtowing to the Bush administration in the wake of 911. I just don't see what the value in that is. I don't get why this is such a big deal. They were bullied into doing what they did by a powerful administration at a time when the country was in a state of panic and Bush's popularity was in the stratosphere. Anyone opposing Bush at that time was being labeled a traitor to the country. That doesn't excuse what they did, but the major criminal in this was the Bush admin. I don't see the value in holding the telcom co.'s feet to the fire for not standing up to the administration, particularly when our own Congressional and Senate representatives were equally unwilling to stand up to him on this very issue as well as others, like the Iraq war.


by Mystylplx on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:59:31 PM EST

If you asked McCain (2.00 / 1)

whether Obama was a moderate to conservative Democrat, he'd probably laugh his ass off before saying "my friends."  I guess the Republican Party has veered so far off to the wingnut section that the progressive blogosphere can consider a guy like Obama to be a moderate.  I suppose I'm to the right of many on this blog because I still consider him, like Hillary, to be a mainstream liberal.  Who knows, maybe he's another Bill but then again, I wouldn't have any complaints with that.


by Blazers Edge on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:02:03 PM EST

CHANGE...... (2.00 / 4)

I always knew that Hillary Clinton was/is a "typical politician." That's right, she is. That being said, she is an experienced politician and she definitely knows her stuff.

During the primary, everyone was ready for "change" and that was Obama's forte, not Clinton's. Now the truth comes out; the continous repositioning by Obama and his campaign just goes to show that he's also a typical politician. The difference between Clinton and Obama; She's a policy wonk and he's not.


by soyousay on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:04:20 PM EST

Re: CHANGE...... (2.00 / 1)

What ever!


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Bill Clinton
by venician on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:12:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He IS the change candidate. (none / 0)

I'm reminded of something John McCain said to Mitt Romney in a debate earlier this year.

"We disagree on a lot of issues, but I agree you are the candidate of change."


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's my third favorite quote (none / 0)

from any debate of this primary season, even though it's pretty ironic coming from McCain.  #2 was Hillary's comment about it taking a Clinton to clean up after the first Bush and etc.  The best comment was Obama himself in my opinion, that ironic comment about him looking forward to having Hillary advising him.


by Blazers Edge on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:23:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (2.00 / 1)

It's always important to hear another person's perspective. Some of us are worked up over this and others are not which is why I always look forward to your diaries. Well written and from the heart.


by Politicalslave on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:17:35 PM EST

Re: Take a Deep Breath, Count to 10 (none / 0)

While we are all totally out of character....

Lets say for a second that there was a bizarro Bill Clinton who happened to be black.  Lets say for the sake of argument that that bizarro Bill Clinton never slammed the Clinton family.

I would have that Bizarro Bill Clinton's back on this issue.

In Politics you have to go where the votes are.  There is usually a large grey zone of where the votes are and you can move as close to your idiology within that zone but you need to stay where the votes are.

I think that Bizarro Bill Clinton would have a pretty good sense of what position he needed to occupy in order to get elected.

On issues like FISA and impeachment of the president its expecially important to understand the political REALITY of the situations trumps the ideology of the situation.  

I know Bill Clinton was good and knowing where the votes were and if there was a Bizarro Bill Clinton I would trust his judgement in that regard too.